Curse

FeroxC · Apr 21, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Having to actually pay the 1k uw entrance fee instead of finding 1ks worth of demonic remains is a small price to pay for the massive crippling of botters, dont you agree ?

FoxBat · Apr 21, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylananimus

But...how will they sell them on if nobody has the money to buy them? And they can't make that money to buy the item for sale, because they themselves can't sell theirs forward, or make loot from trash drops.

They'll just have to lower prices in order to sell.

More rares in HM + more people farming them because thats only good money at the moment = greater supply, + less money from trash drops = lower rare prices = non-farmers can afford more rares.

This nerf is more subtle and effective than you might think.

P.S. why bring a tank in UW when you have earth ele or channeling rit spike? Hard to beat killing everything so fast it can't even hurt you or run away...

Amy Awien · Apr 21, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The problem is you're assuming the drop rate is calculated from the solo farming point of view.

True, and they never stated as much, I see. The only thing Gaile said was

"Thus, our goal is that solo farmers can still earn as much money as they did before, but they'll have to earn it in different ways. Instead of looking for things to sell to merchants, solo farmers should now be looking for things to sell to traders or other players."

This is indeed a load of sales-talk trying to cover up that, indeed, a solo-farmer will get fewer drops when compared to before the update. If drops for solo-farmers would have remained equal in value they would have clearly stated as much, in stead of using this smoke screen.

And nobody in his sane mind will want to waste time trying to sell items to other players unless they have to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravengar Silvertree

The aim isn't to limit solo farmers, it's to limit bots.

That is nonsense. There are better ways to make farming difficult for bots. The old bot-farming spots are still there, unchanged. Makes me wonder if they're just honeypots.

reetkever · Apr 21, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

They'll just have to lower prices in order to sell.

More rares in HM + more people farming them because thats only good money at the moment = greater supply, + less money from trash drops = lower rare prices = non-farmers can afford more rares.

This nerf is more subtle and effective than you might think.

P.S. why bring a tank in UW when you have earth ele or channeling rit spike? Hard to beat killing everything so fast it can't even hurt you or run away...

Ehm no, if you FARM for rare weapons, and you can't sell the weapons, you just keep them in your storage till you see someone type 'WTB'. Meanwhile you continue farming more rare items. At this rate, there's BOUND to be an item someone wants to buy.

I farm for rare weapons frequently, and hell I'm not dropping my prices, I'm thinking of asking more since less people will get the item, so we'll see more WTB's. If players have no cash, they need no rare items either.

Star Gazer · Apr 21, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

do you really think that collector items should be included into this to? as a casual gamer who doesnt really farm greens, collector weapons are usually my outlet :b

Kaleban · Apr 21, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

True, and they never stated as much, I see. The only thing Gaile said was

"Thus, our goal is that solo farmers can still earn as much money as they did before, but they'll have to earn it in different ways. Instead of looking for things to sell to merchants, solo farmers should now be looking for things to sell to traders or other players."

This is indeed a load of sales-talk trying to cover up that, indeed, a solo-farmer will get fewer drops when compared to before the update. If drops for solo-farmers would have remained equal in value they would have clearly stated as much, in stead of using this smoke screen.

And nobody in his sane mind will want to waste time trying to sell items to other players unless they have to.

That is nonsense. There are better ways to make farming difficult for bots. The old bot-farming spots are still there, unchanged. Makes me wonder if they're just honeypots.

I'm still wondering what Gaile meant by "traders?" As it is now, we can spam trade messages for several hours, in a random district and hope someone bites.

Or we can merch it for 1/50th the market value. Is there a Trader NPC somewhere that I'm just not seeing who gives us fair market value for our golds?

reetkever · Apr 21, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by unbound00

Wonderfully put.
There isn't one single forum/thread here that I don't see this happening... When will people realize how fortunate they are that Anet even reads the forums and provide constant feedback. Maybe Anet should become like other game developers and not give a rats ass to what the community has to say and charge everyone for their submissiveness.

If you need to critise Anet's decisions, do you really need to do it as you do now? Anet always gives formal, informative, clear, updates to what they do, plan and think, and all just respond offensive and aggressively. Don't you think Anet offers a lot more right now than most game developers? Is this behavior even remotely likely to get your points accross, make things better? Are you all just ungrateful spoiled infantile players that just can't be bothered to make the slightest effort to be constructive when the developers of the game you play try to mantain an open channel of communication?

Sorry if I'm being rude, but I think that a lot of this community needs a wake up call to see what amazing opportunity they are wasting away with this kind of attittude.

Don't get me wrong, I AM grateful for A-Net trying.

The problem is that these rare drops never drop. They're... kinda rare. Even before this update, I only got 1 gold, ecto in maybe 2 days. The real reason why we're solo farming is for the quick cash. I wanna buy a skill, cool, I'll farm some trolls for the quick 1K and buy it.

And if ALOT of this community is against the update, it says something about the quality of the update. If A-Net just removed PvE, we'd all whine. The PvP'ers, however, don't care and just say 'look at how the community whines'.

This is the same you are doing. It's not called whining, it's called trying to continue to have fun in the game, and don't step up to another game. If people weren't allowed to whine at all, and just had to leave, Guild Wars would have a population of 0, because everybody has something he wants to see changed.

FoxBat · Apr 21, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

I farm for rare weapons frequently, and hell I'm not dropping my prices, I'm thinking of asking more since less people will get the item, so we'll see more WTB's. If players have no cash, they need no rare items either.

Then you aren't selling anything in the future. More people will be farming rares now. How are less people going to get the item when more are being sold, or they might even find them without needing to buy in HM? And if players have no cash for your items, neither will you.

Of course it will take some time for the economy to adjust... but it will.

hatorihanzoe · Apr 21, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

What's the problem? Nothing changes for solo-farmers.

Drops scale up with party size, from what I read from Gaile a party of 8 will have a total (added) drop rate of 4 times solo.

So, assume D is the base dropvalue for a solo-farmer before the update. A party of 8 would share this value, meaning every individual player received D/8.

After the update the solo-farmer will still get D, but now a party of 8 will see 4*D dropping, so now each player get D/2.

What is the problem?

So does that mean if I go green farming with henchs of 8, flag them away and solo the boss, they still get my drops no matter how far i flag em b/c its a party of 8 and they still take my drops.

lactatemike · Apr 21, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Ehm no, if you FARM for rare weapons, and you can't sell the weapons, you just keep them in your storage till you see someone type 'WTB'. Meanwhile you continue farming more rare items. At this rate, there's BOUND to be an item someone wants to buy.

I farm for rare weapons frequently, and hell I'm not dropping my prices, I'm thinking of asking more since less people will get the item, so we'll see more WTB's. If players have no cash, they need no rare items either.

Okay, so I like your attitude about holding on to stuff and dealing with trade as it is convenient. Great outlook, and I think more people should behave that way. Thank you for that.

As far as being able to sell rares and uniques at higher prices, though, you are slightly mistaken. The drop rates of these are not affected by scaling, so they will not be able to sell for more. As gold brought in to the game transitions from simple bots to the average joe schmoe, who will also get more rare drops due to hard mode, prices will actually drop because demand will be more elastic.

Nomen Mendax · Apr 21, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Some players have been concerned about the loot scaling aspect of this week's update.

...

The bottom line is that ArenaNet's goal is to make it easier for normal players to make money while redirecting the efforts of the expert farmers to a way to continue to reap rich rewards without having a harmful effect on the overall game economy.

...

But let's hear it from the design team itself, with this latest Dev Update:

...

A major theme of our most recent update is that the game should be friendlier and more rewarding for casual players, including casual solo farmers, and that the most advanced farmers should differentiate themselves from the crowd not through the amount of gold and common loot that they farm directly from monsters, but instead through the amount of gold that they can get from selling rare items to other players (directly or through traders).

...

People who periodically enjoy farming solo (with no heroes or henchmen) but are casual about it are also likely to see an improvement. They'll find that solo farming is much easier than it was before, because monsters don't have the anti-farming AI that they used to have, and because the game no longer prevents players from repeatedly farming the same monsters over and over. Many types of builds that didn't work in the past, or that haven't been effective since the earliest days of Guild Wars, can now be used for solo farming. Thus, casual farmers will find the game much easier to farm than it was before, and that they can earn more money than before even with loot scaling in place.

From my perspective the part in bold is just nonsense. I'm a casual farmer and I also like playing parts of the game solo (I had a lot of fun finding a functional build to solo The Gates of Kryta), and I'm not in any way a "professional farmer".

The update means that my vermin farming now gets me less loot to save up for goodies, and is easier. From my point of view both these things are bad. ANet's reasoning is now that its easier I can do again and again and again, and then spend more time selling the gold items I find.

But now that it is easier to farm it is less fun. So I get a fun quick activity replaced with repeatedly doing a less fun (slightly quicker) activity followed by more time spent trying to sell the gold items (another unenjoyable activity).

It seems like ANet's idea of a "casual player" is someone who doesn't like any sort of challenge, and enjoys doing the same boring activity over and over again. If this really is part of their design philosophy it doesn't bode well for the future.

One thing that would help, and has been asked for numerous times, is to create item traders, I do hope this is something that is being considered.

The bottom line for me is that I enjoyed the solo farming, which I will now do a lot less if at all. It's not a big deal, but it does mean the game is less fun.

Gaile Gray · Apr 21, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Thanks for this change. It is completely sufficient. I have nothing further to add about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadom

I made a very depressing post in the anti-loot-scaling post.
Much happier now.
Kudos to A-net for listening to it's community.

I happen to agree that it was a good adjustment, myself. I'm nowhere near an expert farmer, but I believe that the changes and the expansion of the exempt list will achieve the necessary anti-inflation goals while preserving the challenge and rewards for those who are the high-level farmers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raven214

I would really like to see this question answered. (Sorry if it has -- I skimmed through and didn't see it though)

Sure, no problem. The question is about using your Heroes or henchmen to trick the system. The theory is this: "If I enter an explorable area and flag my henchmen and Heroes near the entrance, then precede to clear the EA, don't I get the benefits of a full party plus keep all the rewards for myself?" Answer: No, bad idea! Here's why: Drops are determined by, let's call it "active party size." Your active party size is determined by presence in the "area of interest" or, for simplicity, the enlarged aggro bubble. So a monster isn't going to say "Hey, back there at the entrance, this Ele has 7 other friends, I shall therefore drop a generous drop appropriate for an 8-member party!" No, the monster is going to say, "What is this guy nuts, trying to solo me?"

No, seriously, the monster is going to say "Huh, one guy, my loot is therefore appropriate for a one-person party." And he will drop a smaller reward based on that assessment.

The problem--the "gotcha" is--all the gold that the monsters drop will be split between the full 8-member party, even if the other 7 Henchies and Heroes are off having a picnic with the Res Shrine Priest and aren't lifting a finger in battle.

So while it's creative to think of staking non-combatant party members outside the combat zone, you're only shooting yourself in the foot.

Kaleban · Apr 21, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

No, the monster is going to say, "What is this guy nuts, trying to solo me?"

No, seriously, the monster is going to say "Huh, one guy, my loot is therefore appropriate for a one-person party." And he will drop a smaller reward based on that assessment.

The problem--the "gotcha" is--all the gold that the monsters drop will be split between the full 8-member party, even if the other 7 Henchies and Heroes are off having a picnic with the Res Shrine Priest and aren't lifting a finger in battle.

So while it's creative to think of staking non-combatant party members outside the combat zone, you're only shooting yourself in the foot.

So what you're saying is, the in game justification is that all monsters know how many people they're facing beforehand, and throw all their loot into a big secret pile that is invisible?

IMHO it makes MUCH more sense to have drops based on monster type, level and area, then let the PLAYER decide if they should take a full party or can try soloing it.

By doing this, you're basically removing a huge part of the "after-game" once you've done all the missions and quests what else is there to do in PvE? Oh sure, there's Hard Mode now, but that's so reminiscent of Nightmare and Hell difficulty (hey do the same things over again, only get killed twice as much! fun for everyone) that I lol'd.

I'm actually very surprised that solo farming was such a massive concern. I figured, being the dumb player I am, that bots were the main problem, not players, and a solution would be tried that got rid of bots directly, rather than punishing anyone who doesn't group. How about a patch that auto-kicks anyone who doesn't respond to a GM chat request? Or something more proactive than just nerfs across the board?

Maybe the super mega important list could be updated to reflect things players actually want? And I hardly think that after thousands of posts on multiple forums that a few people quoted supporting a socialized system of loot is proof positive.

Dscrilla · Apr 21, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Thanks Gaile, its good to see the reasoning behind the changes. Though i have to agree that a better trading system is needed to meet your economic goals. Hopefully we will see auction houses, trade searching, or somesuch with or before GW:EN.

Grammar · Apr 21, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

The exemption list is the perfect solution for making loot scaling work.
On top of that, the items on the list are exactly what is needed to make loot scaling work.

In other words, loot scaling works. Kudos to Anet.

I remain completely baffled as to why so many people continue to complain after the 4-20 update.
The only reason I can think of is selfishness.

grottoftl · Apr 21, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

gaile i think you should past this suggestion along to the developers:

with updates like this, release the update notes a few days or weeks beforehand and see what the players think about it. make a poll too to see if they agree with it or not. if players in favor of it wins the poll release the update as planned but if players not in favor of it wins, do not release that part of the update. along with that acknowledge the players suggestions that work better than the developers' idea where everyone can agree with and put those into the updates

Kaleban · Apr 21, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

The exemption list is the perfect solution for making loot scaling work.
On top of that, the items on the list are exactly what is needed to make loot scaling work.

In other words, loot scaling works. Kudos to Anet.

I remain completely baffled as to why so many people continue to complain after the 4-20 update.
The only reason I can think of is selfishness.

That's funny. The only reason I can think of for someone wanting the same reward as someone who did 8x the work is ALSO selfishness! How amusing that we agree...

Diddy bow · Apr 21, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Thanks for the explination ^^

But only one type of farming i do works now, but with no more anti code i guess i can do it all i want :P.

reetkever · Apr 21, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I happen to agree that it was a good adjustment, myself. I'm nowhere near an expert farmer, but I believe that the changes and the expansion of the exempt list will achieve the necessary anti-inflation goals while preserving the challenge and rewards for those who are the high-level farmers.
Sure, no problem. The question is about using your Heroes or henchmen to trick the system. The theory is this: "If I enter an explorable area and flag my henchmen and Heroes near the entrance, then precede to clear the EA, don't I get the benefits of a full party plus keep all the rewards for myself?" Answer: No, bad idea! Here's why: Drops are determined by, let's call it "active party size." Your active party size is determined by presence in the "area of interest" or, for simplicity, the enlarged aggro bubble. So a monster isn't going to say "Hey, back there at the entrance, this Ele has 7 other friends, I shall therefore drop a generous drop appropriate for an 8-member party!" No, the monster is going to say, "What is this guy nuts, trying to solo me?"

No, seriously, the monster is going to say "Huh, one guy, my loot is therefore appropriate for a one-person party." And he will drop a smaller reward based on that assessment.

The problem--the "gotcha" is--all the gold that the monsters drop will be split between the full 8-member party, even if the other 7 Henchies and Heroes are off having a picnic with the Res Shrine Priest and aren't lifting a finger in battle.

So while it's creative to think of staking non-combatant party members outside the combat zone, you're only shooting yourself in the foot.

Hmmm but this also means that leechers/AFK'ers 'eat' from the party loot. The only exception is that nobody gets the loot.

The update worked great for high-level farmers. But what about casual players trying to make a quick 5K for a new skillbar, a quick rune or ? In the past, you could just kill some trolls, and then you had cash for a small something needed. No use to farm any more. The big money makers are ecto's, after all.

By removing the 'quick money makers': whites and blues, alot of casual players got stabbed. I can't think of a quick way to earn a little 3K now to buy some basics to prepare for the upcoming mission. Unless you want to kill stuff in a group of 8, but that's gonna take an hour or 2.

How about changing the drops back to normal, and give people more loot in groups of 8? Good loot in PuG's = encourages team play (the loot we now get in an 8 man team isn't worth the effort), and if cash is easier to get, bots will sell less (what's the point in buying gold if you can get it by helping someone with a mission), and because people have a bit more cash, they can buy more weapons. More people have the weapon, less people want it: price decreases---> everyone happy.

It's the same as now actually, but instead of minimizing the drops on both areas, try to maximize them instead.

It's kind of a punish/reward situation. Now the people NOT going in an 8 man party are punished, and forced to go 8 man. Instead of that, you could also REWARD them for going with 8 man parties.

DarkLight OCA · Apr 21, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

<Rare materials not afected>

Are u sure about this.
Iv solo farmed uw 8 run's 0 Ecto, 0 gold, and not made the entry Free on any of the runs, b4 the nerf update i would get avged out over 10 runs 1 Ecto per run..

btw: if this is just to combat bot's why not stop them from using there botting programs? patch up the code were they able to hock into GW. ban ppl who use bots, as they are tampering with your code dont think they have any legal rights, pluss you could make some cash from them as they would have to re perchis GW to play or try botting again..